Season 2, Session 10: Episode 6 – Finwë has a lot of reproductive work to do

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1) “Pausing for the convenience of the editor” t-shirts for Dave

2) Midmoot SilmFilm project presentation (Marie, Nick, Karita) Artwork by Ted Naismith

  • The need to justify this activity
    • Critical analysis vs fanfic/“critfic”
    • Much of Tolkien’s work could be considered fanfic of mythologies
    • In the old days, it was all about retelling old stories. “Doing your own thing”/being creative is a modern thing.
    • Now Number 5 in the Google search for “Silmarillion”

3) Middle of Signum U fundraising

  • Signum has the budget to make SilmFilm happen.
    • We’re now hosting all the Tolkien Professor files on our servers
    • Special events scheduled for the month (starts on Hobbit day and ends on Halloween)
      • Monday 10/3 7:30 EST: discussion with Ted Nasmith (Tolkien artist)
        • Official illustrator of the Silmarillion
      • Meeting with producers/script elves in the Webathon on 10/30
        • Afternoonish
      • Special seminar on the new Tolkien book (language creation) the Secret Vice
        • What do we learn about Tolkien and his development of languages
        • Starting October 9 (series)
      • Gryfflet’s (Corey’s burglar) epic quest on LOTRO

4) Bobwë made an appearance in LOTRO, playing the Bobwë theme on the flute

From last time/Today’s discussion

Lots of good discussion on the boards in the frame with Celebrian, the Melian stuff, Cirdan

  • Should Cirdan have a love interest?
    1. Would be emphasizing the self-sacrifice element
      • 1) Plan to kill her off at Kinslaying
    2. Against. Would rather use erotic desire sparingly, especially in terms of longing.
      • 1) Biggest concern/disaster would be running the risk of ppl thinking romantic longing is the deepest longing, and this would be very unTolkien.
      • 2) Modern film tradition continues to go there – modern American films turn everything into love stories (even re-enactments)
      • 3) If we add a new plot/subplot, that’s ok.
  • The Forsaken – Cirdan and those left behind
    1. It’s actually the ppl who stay behind looking for Elwë that take the name (not the ones on the shore)
    2. Would like Cirdan to keep that name for the Teleri as well
      1. He’s the last of those who chose not to go
      2. He’s the most “Valinoriented”
      3. He is the most aware of being left behind…the others split off for other purposes/desires and/or want to stay behind.
      4. Closing episode 5 with Cirdan saying “we are the forsaken” would be a great conclusion
  • Melian
    1. Sets up her Tom Bombadillian domain to protect Middle-earth (not necessarily looking for the elves but in a similar manner to Ulmo)
      • 1) She doesn’t understand her full purpose yet
      • 2) Her greatest accomplishment in protecting Middle-earth is the birth of Luthien
        1. The future of men and elves is blessed through her line
        2. They are both transformed by their union
  1. Elves of Beleriand in a stable state
  2. Sense of danger – guy stumbles in the woods to find a beautiful enchantress usually doesn’t end well
  3. Elwë becomes Thingol Greymantle when he emerges
    • 1) Celeborn as narrator
    • 2) Do we handle it like Gandalf the White’s initial emergence?
      1. It would be cool for Thingol to not recognize the others at first
      2. Spoiler – passage of time will be an issue
    • Tol Eressea
      1. Don’t think it should be obvious, but an Easter egg like a “cliffs of Dover” looking place but not comment on it
      2. Retains the memory of the ferry that was
      3. Elvenhome across the sea
      4. The land of exile
      5. Neither in Valinor or Middle-earth – a middle ground (where do elves belong)
        • 1) Will have different associations later
        • 2) Complicates the “question” in an interesting way
        • 3) Arwen may have fallen into polarized thinking, this is another possibility
      6. The sea, too, is home
        • 1) The Teleri move to the beach
        • 2) Uinen should interact with them
      7. Sand castle competition amongst the Noldor while waiting to go Valinor??
    • We need these other things to happen:
      1. Vanyar leave Tirion and move to Taniquetil
        • 1) This is not a schism, but how do we handle that?
        • 2) We need characters to tell this story, we can’t tell the story about “a people group”
          1. We have Indis, but we can’t have her with Finwë yet
          2. Ingwë and Finwë? Maybe an informal discussion
            1. It shouldn’t be Ingwë, b/c it shouldn’t look like he made a policy decision
            2. Some kind of conversation between a Noldo and Vanya
            3. Miriel and Indis?!
              1. They can be friends prior to Fëanor’s birth
              2. Maybe in Miriel’s fading moments, she asks Indis to look after him
              3. Modern film stories – sexual passion leads to marriage
                • 1) This isn’t the case with elvish marriage
                • 2) This would be a great time to show that these people aren’t human
                • 3) Maybe the weirdness would be good
                • 4) Elves’ approach to marriage and reproduction are quite different
                • 5) It would make Fëanor’s resentment more interesting if there’s no rivalry between Finwë’s wives
                • 6) We might be stuck bc we don’t have time to introduce any other Vanya and we don’t want too many characters
              4. Miriel’s fading – dying in childbirth, or from post-partum?
                • 1) Leaning towards post-partum
                • 2) We can have toddler Fëanor remembering his mom fading
                  1. Little Fëanor might continue visiting his mom’s body after Finwë stops
                  2. Ironic that the first death in Valinor is of grief, but no one has died.
                  3. He would know Indis, and as a result feel even more betrayed when she takes his mom’s place
                  4. Stokes his resentment towards Indis’s sons
                • 3) Miriel is basically guilty of pride…the Noldo are about making things and she basically made the “bestest” baby and it killed her.
                  1. You could argue that Miriel has a part in Fëanor’s actions. Her death should be a fall…perhaps she gets flashes into the future and may feel guilty about what’s to come
                  2. What Miriel does foreshadows what Sauron does (putting too much of himself in the ring)
                  3. A prideful Mother love would be Miriel’s motivation. She has huge aspirations for him
                  4. This is a sub creative work. Fëanor is to Miriel as the Silmarils are to Fëanor. Showing her while pregnant and being impassioned about creating the greatest Noldo artist
                  5. Foresight during pregnancy of his greatness – all these things are true
                  6. She would share with Indis the foresights during labor of how everything goes wrong, and might make her promise not to tell him
                  7. Indis could pass this knowledge to their sons. Fingolfin and Finarfin would love and respect Miriel, and they would feel a pity for Fëanor (that he would likely misinterpret)
                  8. Finwë needs to be blindly 100% for Fëanor, and Miriel making Indis swear could be Miriel’s final prideful “sin”
                • 4) Lorien could be the attending physician as it were, and he could explain that she put too much of herself…a combination of Fëanor TAKING as well as Miriel giving the energy. He could talk to Finwë to share his concern.
                  • Or vice versa – Finwë would go to Lorien with questions. This could be an organic exposition
                  • Use a 6 mo old baby to portray the newborn Fëanor 🙂
                • B. Teleri arrive, build Alqualondë
                  1. The Noldor are excited, all the oaths of growth and beauty…
                  2. Olwë’s daughter marrying Finarfin is the link in the book, so we need something sooner.
                  3. We only have Olwë right now, so who is he friends with?
                    • Mahtan (master smith, father of Fëanor’s wife)
                      • Was introduced in Episode 4 (elves can be visually retrofitted into Cuivienen)
                      • Helping to build towers, keys, swan ships (creating the set for the Kinslaying)
                      • Has beard?

Questions for next time:


  1. The frame
  2. What’s going to happen?
  • Noontide of Valinor
  • Eldamar and princes of Eldalië
  • Need to introduce Fingolfin, Finarfin and their kids.
    • Which ones do we need?
  • What do we want to emphasize in the early depiction of Fëanor?
    • He’s gotta grow up, develop his alphabet, his relationships with his brothers and dad, get married, learn craft
  • Miriel-Indis relationship?
  • Finwë-Fëanor relationship?
  • What about the bad guys?


Next session is 10/7